Directed Origination
Aesthetic Realism's favorite mind-control trick
by Michael Bluejay
former Aesthetic Realism member • February 2010
Cults use various psychological tricks to get their members to accept the cult's teachings and devote their lives to them. I list some of these on the cult aspects page. Here I'm going to talk about one of the more insidious techniques AR uses, directed origination. That's what I call it since I've been unable to locate the proper term. (If anyone knows, please let me know.) I suppose it's possible that I'm the first to give it a name, though that seems unlikely.
Directed origination means steering the subject to give the desired answer. The idea is that by getting the subject to voice the answer, he then has a certain ownership of it. He thinks it's his idea. So he's less likely to challenge it later on, because that would mean he would be disagreeing with himself. In this way the leaders can get the recruits committed to various positions in short order.
Simply telling a subject what to think doesn't work nearly as well. After all, if you're told what to think, you might not buy it. But if you're required to give the answer yourself, then boom! You must really believe that answer. After all, you said it.
This trick wouldn't be so effective if they did it just once. But they do it over and over again. If you're in AR and you're reading this, you've had this done to you thousands of times already. Think back on your AR consultations and you can easily recognize it. I remember it clearly from the consultations I underwent myself.
I call this directed origination because you're directed by the questioner to give an answer which you then think originated from you. In reality, it originated in the questioner, but it doesn't seem that way when you're questioned.
An essential part of directed origination is the use of false dichotomies. That is, presenting a question as having only two possible correct answers, when in fact there could be many possible answers, or no answers at all, because the question is nonsensical. For example, "Do you think the President is a leprechaun or Israeli?" Obviously the president is neither. An AR teacher wouldn't ask a question quite that ridiculous, but this is just an example of a question presented as having an either/or answer, when neither answer is correct. So let's use a real example. Here's Aesthetic Realism founder Eli Siegel conducting a lesson with a student, asking him:
"You say you felt your mother was utterly devoted to you. Do you think that was intelligent or stupid of her?" (H Persuasion, p. 34)
Come again?! Most people would say that it's neither intelligent nor stupid, since devotion has nothing to do with intelligence. In fact, the student initially makes that protest, saying, "It was natural." But Siegel works on him until he gives the desired answer.
One way of steering with false dichotomies is to make one of the choices so ridiculous or exaggerated, or so insulting, that the subject has little choice but to pick the other one. That choice could also be wrong, but not wildly wrong like the first choice, so it seems more reasonable to pick that one. Here's part of an consultation where the AR people try to cure a student of being gay.
Aesthetic Realist: So then do you think you were, as you thought about a man, and you conquered him in your mind, had your way with him, do you think you felt then more more important?
Student: I...I don't know if I did or not.
Aesthetic Realist: Well, did you think you were some weak, pathetic person, or do you think for those moments as you had some strong, aloof man crumble for you, yield to you, do you think you were something like the ruler of the world for those moments?
I love that example because it really crystallizes this whole concept.
Detailed examples of Directed Origination
Eli Siegel's lesson of Sheldon Kranz
This example shows how powerful directed origination can be. In short order, Siegel gets the Kranz to agree he feels that:
- Kranz' mother is stupid for being devoted to him.
- He doesn't respect her.
- He has contempt for her (since AR's basic philosophy is that all problems are caused by contempt).
The text is Kranz' detailing how the lesson went.
"Do you respect your mother?" Mr. Siegel asked.
"Of course," I said.
"I don't think you do. Did you feel as a child that you owned your mother, that she was utterly devoted to you?"
"Yes," I said.
"Do you think that was intelligent or stupid of her?"
"It was natural," I answered.
"But was it intelligent?"
"Not so intelligent," I said finally.
"But you liked it? It made you feel awfully powerful having this big person so devoted to you?"
"I don't remember," I said. Then I added, "It probably did."
"Do you think that is still in your mind—feeling that you are the most important thing in your mother's life?"
"No," I replied promptly.
"Who is the most important person to your mother now?"
I thought of my father and my younger sister and my mother's sisters with whom she had a lot to do. "I guess I am," I said sheepishly.
"Do you respect your mother's attitude toward you?"
I didn't answer.
"Do you think you deserve such devotion?"
I shook my head.
"Then wouldn't that mean that you think your mother isn't so smart in being devoted to you as she is?"
"I guess so," I said, feeling I was betraying her in some way.
"Wouldn't you say that indicated some lack of respect on your part?"
"Yes," I said.
"Wouldn't you say that lack of respect is in the field of contempt?"
"I don't have contempt for my mother," I said sharply.
"Contempt isn't just crude," Mr. Siegel explained. "It's so much a part of people's everyday lives, they don't even know it's going on. Do you sometimes find yourself not istening to your mother when she's talking to you?"
"Yes," I said.
"Do you think that shows respect or contempt?"
"Contempt," I admitted.
Another Eli Siegel lesson
Here's a short example which I include because the answer that's being directed relates to seeing Eli Siegel as the student's savior:
Eli Siegel: In a sense, I am a rival to all the persons you've known—not because it's me, but because of what I call to in you. Do you feel I call to the same thing they do, or to something deeper?
Student: You call to something deeper. (H Persuasion, p. 57)
Aesthetic Realism "consultation", trying to "cure" the subject of being gay
The subject here sought AR's gay cure many years ago. (It didn't work, and he considers himself a well-adjusted gay man now.) He sent me a tape of one of his AR consultations. What I like about this example is how strongly the student resisted the directed origination. He's not going along with it, he insists on answering honestly, and pointing out when he doesn't agree that a question is an "either/or" situation. He really makes the AR people work at the directed origination, which makes the D.O. really obvious.
Another reason I love this example is we get to see the fallout: Since the student isn't taking the bait, the AR teachers lash into him for being "argumentative". And finally, we see how the lesson concludes with the teachers steering the student to profess profound "gratitude" for having "met" Aesthetic Realism.
Because this is so lengthy I deleted some parts to make it flow better, and it's not always obvious where I've done so. Here's the complete original transcript.
|
Teacher #1 |
So do you think you were interested in using [another man] for your, uh, pleasure of feeling for those moments that you were the most important, powerful thing in the world? As he crumbled for you, as you conquered him in your mind? |
|
Student |
[silence] |
|
Teacher #1 |
[slighty annoyed] Do you think you were not interested in knowing him, but interested in using him to make yourself superior? |
|
Student |
Well I was interested in, ah, you know, using him for my own purposes. But I really have a hard time with, you know, "trying to make myself superior". |
|
Teacher #1 |
...So do you think your purposes, as you thought about a man that way, do you think you were interested in who he was? |
|
Student |
No. |
|
Teacher #1 |
So then do you think you were, as you thought about a man, and you conquered him in your mind, had your way with him, do you think you felt then more more important? |
|
Student |
[silence] |
|
Teacher #1 |
For those minutes... |
|
Student |
I...I don't know if I did or not. |
|
Teacher #1 |
Well, did you think you were some weak, pathetic person, or do you think for those moments as you had some strong, aloof man crumble for you, yield to you, do you think you were something like the ruler of the world for those moments? |
|
Student |
Yeah, but I guess I don't see him crumbling, either. |
|
Teacher #3 |
Well he was doing what you wanted him to do, right? He had no say in the matter? |
|
Student |
Well...it wasn't like I forced him. |
|
Teacher #1 |
No. As you think about having your way with a man... |
|
Student |
Yeah? |
|
Teacher #1 |
...do you think the height of the pleasure is feeling that for those moments that you're affecting him, he's almost mindless about you? He's in such a state of excitement and frenzy that he's almost mindless about you? |
|
Student |
I have a hard time seeing that, or thinking that I feel that way. |
|
Teacher #1 |
Well, as you think about a man and a man yields to you, unless you do to him whatever you want, is he just cool, or is he all worked up? In your mind as you think about him? |
|
Student |
He's probably worked up. |
|
Teacher #1 |
Probably? |
|
Student |
Well yeah... |
|
Teacher #1 |
Let's, come on, what are we talking about? So he's worked up. |
|
Student |
Right. |
|
Teacher #1 |
And what is he worked up over, the cornfields, or you? |
|
Student |
Me. |
|
Teacher #1 |
You. So do you think for those moments you're having, you're making somebody all worked up, all in a fluster, not sensible, and certainly not cool and calm? Do you think that's true? |
|
Student |
Yeah. |
|
Teacher #1 |
So do you think for those moments you feel more powerful, because of the effect you're having on a person? |
|
Student |
[pause] Okay... |
|
Teacher #1 |
Do you get the mailman to respond that way? Or do you get someone in the local supermarket to respond that way when you buy the groceries? Or are they more sensible about you then? |
|
Student |
Sensible. |
|
Teacher #1 |
That's right. So do you think as you're thinking about somebody in a homosexual way, and you're, and the person's getting worked up, do you think for those moments you're getting somebody who seems to be strong, otherwise cool, otherwise sensible, for those moments he's in a whirlwind over you. |
|
Student |
[long pause] Okay, I never really thought about it... |
...
|
Teacher #2 |
He was an instance you gave. At the moment after there has been getting what you wanted, as you call it, pleasure, how did Pete look after? |
|
Student |
I never really think about it. |
|
Teacher #2 |
But, do you think that right after the sexual expression, however it was come to, with it or without him, do you think he looked stronger to you or weaker? |
|
Student |
[silence] |
|
Teacher #2 |
Do you think that — I don't know just what went on in your mind, and uh things are different, but — do you think you looked over at him and there was a person there who he cared for more deeply or there was a conquest lying there when you were finished? |
|
Student |
[pause] I'd have to say neither, you know, neither stronger nor weaker. |
|
Teacher #2 |
Well, uh, put it another way, would you want Pete to know your thoughts... |
|
Student |
No. |
|
Teacher #2 |
about him? Why? |
|
Student |
Well because he's heterosexual. |
|
Teacher #3 |
Well, even if he was homosexual do you think you'd be proud of your thoughts? |
|
Student |
No, I guess not.. |
|
Teacher #1 |
All right. So why are you not proud of your thought? Do you think the thought is kind, as you think about him sexually? Do you think you're kind or do you think you're selfish? |
|
Student |
[pause] Uh...probably selfish. |
|
Teacher #1 |
Selfish. So do you think whenever we're selfish we're using the world, and a representative of the world, to be selfish, do you think we'll have to be against ourselves? |
|
Student |
[pause] You said...what? |
|
Teacher #1 |
Do you think whenever we use the world, a representative of the world — and Pete is a representative of the world, right? — do you think whenever we use a representative of the world to be selfish, do you think we have to be against ourselves? |
|
Student |
Yes. |
|
Teacher #1 |
That's right. The objection to homosexuality which is one form of selfishness — it's not the only form of selfishness but it is one of the forms of selfishness humanity can go after — whenever we are selfish, we're against ourselves because of an ethical reason.... |
And here's the fallout, where they berate him for being "argumentative". But even here, they don't tell him he was argumentative. They use directed origination to get him to say it! Incredible.
|
Teacher #1 |
...I'd like to ask you something else: Did — you studied — did you listen to the last consultation? I'll be direct. Did you actually listen to it? |
|
Student |
Yes. |
|
Teacher #1 |
Did you like yourself for the way you talked, the way you listened? |
|
Student |
[silence] |
|
Teacher #1 |
As you listened to yourself did you like the way you answered questions and even the way you asked questions? |
|
Student |
No. |
|
Teacher #1 |
Did you, do you think the reason you didn't like yourself was because you were really, sincerely trying to see something, or because you were being argumentative for the purpose of not seeing what is true, and in fact thwarting? |
|
Student |
Well, I guess, maybe it would be, if I tried to, I guess I would have to say I was disappointed in myself for not catching on quicker. |
|
Teacher #1 |
Yeah, but do you think there was anything argumentative? See a person can not understand something and they can say, "I don't understand this." When I began to study Aesthetic Realism I wanted to see, but I also made a mistake in wanting to be superior. |
|
Student |
So you think I'm trying... |
|
Teacher #1 |
No, I'm talking, I'm talking about myself for the moment. But I had gone through schools and I felt that I, well, had a certain sense of myself, I thought I was fast and clever, uh, bright. And the idea that I did not know Aesthetic Realism and the tremendous knowledge that Eli Siegel had came to — on one hand I was grateful that Aesthetic Realism was so big there was something for me to learn — and it was true about me, I was grateful for that. But on the other hand, I made the stupid mistake of resenting the, the size of Aesthetic Realism and the fact that there was something new for me to learn. And do you think anything like that is going on in you? |
|
Student |
Yes. |
|
Teacher #1 |
All right. Do you think, do you think you like yourself for the way — do you think you were argumentative in a way in that last consultation? |
|
Student |
Yes. |
|
Teacher #1 |
All right. I think you were. And we were ready to ask... answer questions that you had about Aesthetic Realism. That's our purpose, to teach a person Aesthetic Realism so they can have the lives we've got, and the kind of life Mr. Lynch is writing about, for the people all over Long Island to see, his life, in that review. But, do you think something went on in you that said, "I shouldn't be so grateful. I, Brian Carson, shouldn't be so grateful. I shouldn't show there's something new for me to learn. Let me see if I can very carefully thwart, and instead of answering a question, ask another question on top of it!" You know, the "but if" question. "What about..but if this...what about that?" Do you think you were doing something like that in the last consultation? |
|
Student |
Well it's possible but I really was having a hard time understanding. |
|
Teacher #1 |
Right, but do you think it, when you don't understand something, do you like the idea that there's something new for you to learn, or do you get angry? |
|
Student |
I guess I get angry. |
|
Teacher #1 |
Do you think that's smart or do you think it's gonna cause trouble? |
|
Student |
Cause trouble. |
|
Teacher #1 |
So do you think, you, got angry afterwards? Because in your next consultation, which was the last one, that's where you were, um, well, in a way being smug and argumentative. |
|
Student |
But I think, I think, really, I think that I wasn't understanding the way I wanted to. |
|
Teacher #1 |
All right... |
|
Student |
I was being disappointed in maybe not in myself as much as... |
|
Teacher #1 |
Yeah, but do you think you had a tone? See it's one thing not to understand, and we're all for explaining a principle... |
|
Student |
Right... |
|
Teacher #1 |
...and talking about it until you see it yourself. Because you're the one that's got to see how Aesthetic Realism is true. |
|
Student |
Right. |
|
Teacher #1 |
This is education. But do you think there was a tone you had, sort of a little annoyed, in that last consultation? |
|
Student |
[silence] |
|
Teacher #1 |
Dr. Leeman would say something and then instead of you answering the question you would say, "What about this?! What about that?!" |
|
Student |
Well I guess, like, you're right, you said that I don't, maybe, you know, you're a little scared to believe that something might help me, you know? |
|
Teacher #2 |
Well, but you see... |
|
Teacher #3 |
You see we're saying, Mr. Carson, there's a way to meet something if there's an honest inquiry and an unsureness. And I think you listen to that consultation again in relation to your first consultation and you'll hear a difference. And there was, there was a way of coming back, instead of answering a question or asking, asking a question yourself to be clearer. |
|
Teacher #1 |
You didn't — let's put it this way — you didn't sound just happy in the last consultation. You sounded a little annoyed. |
|
Student |
Okay. |
And of course, they steer him to expressing profound "gratitude" to Eli Siegel and Aesthetic Realism.
|
Teacher #1 |
Or, you're gonna say, to yourself, "Hey, I don't like appearing like I don't know everything around, and who are they to know so much more than me? So I'm gonna act as if I want to understand something, but I'll try to fight them along the way." Do you think either you'll be glad that there's something that there's new for you to learn, and grateful, or are you gonna get angry? |
|
Student |
Well, I'm grateful that there's something to learn but I guess, I guess, I don't know, I'm disappointed in myself sometimes if I don't understand it... |
|
Teacher #1 |
Now that sounds noble... |
|
Student |
...as quick as I wanted. |
|
Teacher #1 |
Yeah, that sounds noble, you were disappointed in yourself. But do you think you were just disappointed in yourself, or do you think you wanted to — I'll be direct — do you think you wanted to punish us, because we are the ones teaching you Aesthetic Realism? |
|
Student |
[silence] |
|
Teacher #1 |
See, what it comes to is this: Do you already respect Aesthetic Realism and Mr. Siegel more than you even thought you would when you called the Aesthetic Realism Foundation the first time? |
|
Student |
Well, I'm learning a lot about it, I guess I, I guess it's more than I thought it was. |
|
Teacher #1 |
But I used the word respect. Do you think you, Brian Carson, respect Eli Siegel and Aesthetic Realism more than you even thought you would? |
|
Student |
[long pause] Yes. |
|
Teacher #1 |
All right. So is that good news for you? That you've met something that's so big, true, and kind, that it has you feel so hopeful, and therefore you have so much respect, or is that bad news? That you've met something... |
|
Student |
Good news. |
|
Teacher #1 |
...And what we're saying is, is when a person has about three or four consultations as you have, they begin to see how big Aesthetic Realism is. And they begin to see that it's true, not just about homosexuality, but about the world as such, people, generally. It's true! And either they'll express their gratitude for this, or they'll turn their gratitude into anger. And I feel some of that went on in that consultation, Mr. Carson, and that's why we're being critical of it now, because it was wrong, and it's also hurting you, and we're saying, "Don't make the mistake of resenting the fact that you respect Eli Siegel more and more." |
|
Teacher #3 |
...You know a tremendous amount. And I think you would be much smarter and for your life if you would talk about that, what you have seen, what you have learned. Yes, what you, also what you haven't seen and what you want to see more. But you've heard and you've seen a lot. |
|
Teacher #2 |
Is that true Mr. Carson? |
|
Student |
Yes. |
|
Teacher #2 |
So do you think that you are tremendously, tremendously grateful that you met the Aesthetic Realism of Eli Siegel? |
|
Student |
Yes. |
|
Teacher #1 |
So why do you think Mr. Carson you didn't begin this consultation saying this, something like this: "Gentlemen, before you begin the consultation I want to tell you how grateful I am to Aesthetic Realism and to Mr. Siegel, the founder of Aesthetic Realism, that I'm hearing the questions and the principles, and that you're teaching me this knowledge, because I'm seeing it — there's a lot more for me to see, I don't want to pretend that I see everything, hardly, gentlemen! But I'm seeing how Aesthetic Realism is true, and I'm grateful! I've never been happier in my life! I've never had this much hope in my life! So I want to say that as I begin." Why do you... |
|
Student |
That's how you felt I should have started out? |
|
Teacher #1 |
I'm asking you why do you think you didn't begin saying something like that? Do you think something like that is in Brian Carson? |
|
Student |
Yeah, yeah, I do have a lot of hope... |
|
Teacher #1 |
I'm saying, you're saying hope I'm saying gratitude! |
|
Student |
Well, I am very thankful, but... |
|
Teacher #1 |
...Do you think you lead with your gratitude, or do you think you keep it under wraps? As of... |
|
Student |
I keep it under wraps. |
|
Teacher #1 |
So do you like yourself for that? |
|
Student |
No, but... |
|
Teacher #1 |
Okay, hold on! You're, you don't like yourself for that! |
|
Student |
Right. |
|
Teacher #1 |
Do you think you'd like yourself more, Mr. Carson, if you did show more your gratitude to the good that has already come to you? Much more good can come to you! But do you think you'd like yourself more if you expressed more of your gratitude? |
|
Student |
Yes. |
|
Teacher #2 |
Do you, do you feel less lonely through that poem? |
|
Student |
Yes. |
|
Teacher #2 |
Well this is, this is a, are you grateful? |
|
Student |
Yes. |
|
Teacher #2 |
And do you think you have felt that pretty much from the beginning as you met Mr. Siegel's thought, either through consultations or more so as you read his words in The Aesthetic Realism of Eli Siegel and the Change from Homosexuality, that here is a mind that was friendly to my life? |
|
Student |
Yes. |
|
Teacher #2 |
Are you grateful? |
|
Student |
Yes. |
|
Teacher #2 |
Do you want to see and express that gratitude as much as you haven't? |
|
Student |
Yes. |
|
Teacher #2 |
Well if you do, consultations will go well and your life will be different. This is what we're saying essentially. That you haven't wanted to. And it's held you back and it's, and it's curtailed the usefulness we could have for you. |
Inquest of a student who went back to being gay
One of the most scandalous things I have on this site is a transcript of a secret AR meeting, an inquest of someone who was "cured" of his homosexuality, quickly married off to another AR member, and then found to still be having gay sex. The scandal isn't that the cure didn't stick, or even that AR thought it was a good idea to try to convert gays in the first place. That's old news. What's scandalous about this is how furious and spiteful the AR people are at the member and his wife, the damage control planning they do (e.g. They had to hurriedly edit him out of the "We Have Changed" film they made), and how personal lives are no longer personal once you're in the cult. The wife was severely criticized for not alerting the group immediately when she suspected her husband was still having gay sex. (In fact, she did alert the group, but didn't do so immediately, and that transgression was enough to get her raked over the coals.)
The reason I mention the inquest here is because it's an excellent example of directed origination. In fact, it's an ironic example. The interrogator tries to get the member and his wife to voice what they think should be done about the member's transgression. When they can't, the interrogator asks:
Main Interrogator: ....Which do you think would take better care of Aesthetic Realism: if you came to a decision about something, or if you were told what to do?Subject: If I came to a decision.
So they're using the tactic, about the tactic! Talk about irony.
Here are some more examples of D.O. from the inquest.
Male voice: Were you thinking of the fact that this could harm Aesthetic Realism in this way, or were you just thinking of Bonnie Randall?
Main Interrogator #1: Are you interested, Mr. Randall, in the damage you have done?
Luke Randall: Well, that's why I came here.
Main Interrogator #1: Is it a victory or a defeat?
Luke Randall: The damage I have done? It's a horrible defeat.
Main Interrogator #1: Do you see that the fact that you've been public about Aesthetic Realism and this has happened is just a death blow to the reputation and mockery of the reputation of every person in this room? And that you hold every one of us up to ridicule? Yes or no.
Luke Randall: I can't say yes or no. [Many exclamations of disapproval in background]
Main Interrogator #1: We hope that by the end of the evening, you will be saying yes.
Main Interrogator #1: What do you think would be justice in this situation as to you? As to Mrs. Randall?
Luke Randall: It's very hard to be objective. I don't know.
Main Interrogator #1: I WANT YOU TO SAY WHAT YOU THINK WOULD BE JUSTICE IN THIS SITUATION! YOU WANT EVERYBODY ELSE TO TELL YOU! WE'RE NOT GOING TO...
Luke Randall: [garbled]
Main Interrogator #1: WELL THEN SAY IT!
Luke Randall: I don't know!
Miss P: I wanted to ask Mrs. Randall if she sees herself as a victim of circumstance or an active participant in this?
Bonnie Randall: Well, I've been thinking about this because I didn't want to see myself as being a part of this, and I feel that...
Main Interrogator #1: Miss R seems to want to interrupt you.
Miss R: I'd like to know, since you say you didn't see yourself as a part of this, when you got the first hint of a suspicion that there might be H, why didn't you call ten people; why didn't you raise your hand in an Opinion Meeting? Why didn't you make something public - unless you were out to protect your husband so you can have contempt galore for him, contempt for Eli Siegel and Aesthetic Realism and drag everybody through the mud?
Main Interrogator #1: Have you or have you not been in torment in the last couple of days, Mr. S?
Male voice: I wanted to ask you what do you intend to do to protect Aesthetic Realism?
Luke Randall: Well, the thing is, I definitely never intend to go near an H bar or dock or anything like that. I, I...
Main Interrogator #1: So you're going to live deprived. What else do you intend to do?
Luke Randall: I don't know; I don't know.
Main Interrogator #1: Well, sir, think! This is what we're here for.
Luke Randall: I really don't know.
Main Interrogator #1: Mr. Randall, I'll just, I'll say it quietly. Which do you think would take better care of Aesthetic Realism: if you came to a decision about something, or if you were told what to do?
Luke Randall: If I came to a decision....
Main Interrogator #1: I will not hesitate to tell you what I think you should do, but I think it would be far better for Aesthetic Realism if you made the decision.
Luke Randall: I agree with that.
Main Interrogator #1: So will you please tell us what you think should be.
Luke Randall: I don't know!
Main Interrogator #1: FIND YOUR WAY!
Luke Randall: I, I, it's, this...
Male voice: You want to be told what to do, and then you can have contempt for Aesthetic Realism and work it into this situation where you are hurt.
Main Interrogator #1: Mrs. Randall, look, let's make something very clear. In certain ways you don't have a choice. So what do you think, even as to you, would be fair? And what do you see as for yourself as taking care of Aesthetic Realism at this time?
Bonnie Randall: Just as to myself?
Main Interrogator #1: As to yourself.
[LONG PAUSE]
Main Interrogator #1: Do you think people have a right to question your sincerity?
Bonnie Randall: Yes.
Main Interrogator #1: Yes, but staying with right now, what's being talked about as to Mr. Randall, you say rather cautiously maybe he shouldn't be in class. Do you think that — what do you feel is necessary to protect Aesthetic Realism? Do you feel that "Perhaps Mr. Randall shouldn't be in class" is sufficient, or do you think that it is, well, that perhaps Aesthetic Realism needs further protection?
[LONG PAUSE.]
Bonnie Randall: I think both, I don't know.
[VOICES YELLING]